Bodybuilders of yesteryear. Diet differences, etc.

[FitzChivalry]

Odd if you look back at the big names (natural) of bodybuilders back in the day and look at their diets you see rather large differences compared to today. Steve Reeves ate 60% carbs, 20% fat, and 20% protein. How's that for carb phobia? Most being of fruit, etc. which also goes against the somewhat askance glances fruits get from some BBers (too much sugar, etc.). Also the low amount of protein is different than today's standards.
He also only ate about three times a day.
http://classicphysiquebuilder.blogsp...que-steve.html
Vince Gironda (one of the top/if not the top trainers) was also an advocate of lower protein which is kind of at odds with his low to no carb diet (head-case?). "Vince maintained that bodybuilders consuming 200–300 grams of protein a day were using excessive amounts of protein in their diets". "To summarize this, I go on record by stating that you would be far better off with 65 grams of protein, than 300". In his case I find it hard to believe where he's getting the rest of his cals from as he isn't a super high fat guy. Just moderate.
It also looks as if their caloric intake was quite low compared to those taken in today. Anyways, Reeves was one of the reasons of my interest in BB.ing due to the Hercules movies, so I'm kind of just spouting off, etc. and wondering about some things.

[D70726]

It's amazing and funny to think that back then was pretty much the pioneer days for steroids whenever you look at the huge part that aesthetics and symmetry played for bodybuilders of that day. One of my favorite bodybuilders (I can't remember his name ATM) at top competition form, which he won more than one year, weighed in at 190lbs come contest time. That's only 8 or so pounds BELOW our own MM. His body was 100% development and equally distributed, but he was far from the 240lb. monsters of nowadays.

However, I am glad that the time was chronicled, even amidst all the steriods claims. Personally, I love calisthetics and anything involving bodyweight. I view even the way you hold yourself walking as a tool to change your body. Honestly, though, I doubt that I would've had the desire to perform pullups, dips, pushups, and even body-weight squats had I not known that it was a very integral part of Arnold and Reg Parker's physiques, even if both were probably subjected to steriod use.

[heyzeus909]

In my bodybuilding.com interview, I was asked by the interviewer if I was familiar with Vince Gironda's philosophies on nutrition. I had to claim ignorance, but began researching Gironda soon afterward. I immediately saw why I was asked if I was familiar with Gironda by the interviewer. Vince Gironda forgot more about nutrition than I'll ever learn, but the outlooks I have on nutrition are very, very similar to his.

There were generations of strength men and physique builders from the turn of the century to the steroid era beginning in the 60's. The information was handed from one person to the next and was refined over the decades. These men knew what worked and what didn't. The information was absolutely pure as it related to building the physique naturally.

Then came the steroid era and the magazines that promoted the steroid physique. They would report the nutrition and training techniques of their steroid stars which have little or no bearing on what naturals should do. Mix in political correctness (read: low fat diets and the lot), supplement companies that want you to believe that you will make greater gains from their products than you can from the best of nutrition, the scientific studies that have very little real life application - yet are held as gospel, and I have no doubt that the waters have been muddied so much that the collective nutrition wisdom of the natural bodybuilding culture has actually regressed over the past 40 or 50 years, rather than been advanced. In other words, they knew more then than we do now.

I did a google of the quotes that FitzChivalry posted. The first quote wasn't by Gironda, but the second quote was. I recommend everyone to read through the following link where that quote, in full, and so much more of Gironda's words can be read:


Link

In the same quote where Gironda is comparing 65 grams of protein vs 300 grams, he mentions a physique athlete eating 4 dozen eggs a day and "looks unbelievable".

Other quotes:

"Rather than take steroids I advise bodybuilders in normal robust health to take up to three dozen eggs daily, to push their muscles to a new plateau."

"Increase fats while decreasing overall calorie intake. (Fats aid protein assimilation and can step up metabolic rate)."

"Science plays it safe; science is not an experimentor. The real scientist is the guy who is trying to discover something that was there all the time (nature), and takes the first step (unscientific) and discovers nature’s secrets. Actually, there is nothing new at all. The facts were always there. I do not subscribe to man’s laws (science). My information comes from a different source."

"I will put my reputation on the line to prove that steroids are not any better or as good as four dozen fertile eggs, 100 liver tabs, and 100 amino acid tablets per day."

"You must stop combining carbohydrates and protein at the same meal."


Please read the information in the link provided so you can get the full context of these quotes.


Another decent site for a glimpse into Gironda's principles can be found here.


Oh - and Gironda wasn't just a nutrition guru, either. He had some hardcore philosophies with regard to training as well. His gym reportedly had no squat rack and, according to reports, he would kick people out for doing leg raises.

[FitzChivalry]

I've been researching a lot about him as well for a bit now and love his attitude and quotes, etc. He whipped Arnold into shape.
That's the site I got the quote from as well. I am still having a hard time understanding where he get his caloric intake from, though, when he says things about protein levels, etc. and says he got in his best shape eating 65 grams of protein a day. Starvation type diets? I understand about keeping positive nitrogen levels but he kind of skirts the issue in the site on that when asked.
Also, looking at some of his quotes people do make him out to be completely anti carbs when in some cases he wasn't.
He reminds me a bit of Charles Poliquin.

And remember to bench to your neck for better results.

[Rockwild]

Lots of good information in this post.. If people have jumped by this post .... Please check it out this time.

Thanks for the links guys.

[heyzeus909]

The following are some more Gironda-isms that are from http://www.trulyhuge.com/vince-gironda-articles.html. These aren't all of them...just the ones I picked out. Enjoy.



Manual for Gym Instructions
(IronMan Magazine Jan 1977 Vol. 36 No. 2)

1. Develop illusion of width across chest (parallel dips, dip slide or ped push-ups.)

2. Increase chest measurement by accentuating taper (Terris Major) with short pull (chest concave, elbows wide) not lats

3. Bring up arm measurement with peak bicep (Spider bench) double contraction

4. Pull out middle tricep for corresponding line of measurement on tape, with pulley push down (elbows firm to body and thumbs on top of bar.)

5. Bring out dramatic illusion of width by using DB laterals or shoulder width upright rowing. Laterals are tilted down (front bell - elbows bent.)

6. Give no abdominal work of any kind or you will stop all muscle growth.

7. Give forearm work seated on bench (straddle and actually lay bar on bench each rep (singles).) Thumbs must be under bar. Forearms and wrists are on top of thighs with wrists hanging over knees.

8. Reverse BB curls are done with collar width grip and bar rubs body on the curl and down. Hacks are done in Frog Squat position, heels together and back under hips. Toes are wide - 12 inches.

9. Calves are always done with shoes 4" wide and come up on big toe drawing heel together at top of movement (knees are unlocked).

Nutrition will not be discussed because nutrition is highly individualized.

Do not deviate from these exercises because anything other than this routine will not cause super fast visual results.




Ask Vince
(Musclemag Magazine February 1985)

I've always been interested in what you have written Mr. Gironda, but also I am aware that some things you say are radical to say the least. Some might say your ideas border on being 'strange'. I mean you do not like the squat or the bench press. These are the two basic moves in bodybuilding. You seldom recommend any shoulder pressing or regular barbell curls. Why are you different from everyone else?

I do not set out to be different from everybody else. It's just that my practical experience in training champion bodybuilders (and I mean training them, not just claiming to train them) extends 'to a longer' period of time than anyone else . . . it is reasonable, I believe, to understand that I may have picked up a thing or two.. .I am not a great believer in the exercises you mention because I have found superior substitutions, better movements. Exercises that give more shape, more development and quicker than other methods. You don't have to buy my book to find out everything I believe. Get it free from your local library.



Time to workout
(Musclemag Magazine March 1979 Vol. 4 Issue 1)
MM note: I edited the answer to include only the info about Gironda's supplement recommendations to the user. Notice the egg shell calcium tablets!

One thing I will suggest is to take 3 Argintine Beef Liver capsules and 3 Amino Acid tablets every three hours, also 6 phosphorous free molusk and egg shell calcium tablets 3 times a day at meals.



Vince Eccentric?
(Musclemag Magazine February 1987)

Friends of mine said that they visited your gym, which they like, but they said you are a little eccentric. When she asked your opinion about some bread she had bought, you threw it across the gym in disgust because it didn't fit your nutritional standards. . . and then they said when a person brought a radio into the gym to play heavy rock music, you kicked it of the bench.

So?



Gain muscle - lose fat
(Musclemag Magazine October 1988)

Is it possible to simultaneously gain muscle and lose fat, while retaining the same bodyweight? I want to lose fat without losing weight.

Of course it's possible. That's the whole idea of bodybuilding, to lose fat while gaining muscle. You may lose 10 pounds of fat and replace it with 10 pounds of muscle, so your weight gain will be zero but your body will look totally different. The secret to gaining muscle while losing fat is to train as I suggest in my courses, with little rest between sets as possible and working for a maximum pump in the minimum amount of sets.

Your diet should be high in protein and nutritious food. Eat 6 small meals a day as opposed to 3 large ones. Take amino's with your meals and in between meals to keep you in positive nitrogen balance and to keep your blood sugar levels elevated.



Gironda Explains His Opposition to Running
(IronMan Magazine March 1976 Vol. 35 No. 3)

In response to request to elaborate on problems of running in conjunction with bodybuilding: after thirty years in the gym business a man does not have to be very smart to learn a few basic truths. Observation of repetitious failures of successes in bodybuilding problems finally becomes startlingly clear.

Even animals learn through repetition without any outside influence. The first article I ever wrote for a physique magazine was concerning overtraining (Train, Don't Strain).

Top men from all over the country who consult me on their training problems are all, down to the last man, overtraining! Too many sets, too many reps, too many different exercises. I teach them to simplify their routines and if you can absorb this - train harder. (Train over your head). Get more work done in the shortest period of time, and stay within the confines of your own personal blood sugar levels. Blood sugar level drop and losing your pump go hand in hand. When this occurs you drop into a catabolic state (overtonis, hormone loss, capillary shrinkage, flaccid muscle tissue and a smooth appearance). At this point you have over-trained; this happens because the central nervous system, stimulating capillaries to expand, suddenly stops the process so you do not rupture the capillaries. At this point there is a definite muscle tissue loss, which is followed by general weakness and lassitude (Negative Nitrogen Balance).

Abdominal work also produces central nervous system shock and the aforementioned condition if not fully understood by the trainer. Needless to say, running also produces the same state. At this point I am presenting an article from a jogging and running magazine (now out of print) called "Fitness for Living", November, December, 1968 issue. The article explains what makes muscle tissue grow and what does not. Also, I am including a page from my newest booklet on 'Overtonis' (Vince's 6-Week Bulk Course).



The Bodybuilder's Greatest Pitfall: Overtonis:

Overtonis is a condition caused by too many sets, too many different exercise combinations - in short, overwork, which causes muscle tissue loss, hormone depletion, weakness and a smoothed-out appearance, inability to produce a pumping effect and a general lassitude or weakness.

Overtonis produces a stringy appearance with no healthy round look apparent in a properly worked muscle.

Overtonis is caused by male hormone loss.

Overtonis causes the central nervous system to cease pumping blood into capillaries which might otherwise rupture. To achieve a maximum pump exercise until you notice pump loss. At this point, check back the number of sets, tempo and repetitions required to achieve this effect. This is your personal exercise requirement level.



Stress
(IronMan Magazine Jan 1977 Vol. 36 No. 2)

Stress can be described as anything painful which upsets our equilibrium (workouts you do not enjoy).

Stress asks for Fight or Flight - we do neither - so exercise.

The heart beat quickens and the blood pressure rises. Hormones pour into the blood alerting various organs sending sugar to the muscles. The digestive system turns off so attention can be directed to the threat. Red cells flow into arteries to help the body take in additional oxygen. The body is getting ready to release the pressure you are under by Fight or Flight. But unlike our caveman ancestors, we can no longer indulge in Fight or Flight, so again I say: EXERCISE - and HARD!

no one can avoid stress no mater how metaphysical he tries to be and stress is the bodybuilder's number one enemy!

Stop driving yourself through workouts that are too long!



Basics?
(Musclemag Oct'84)

I am from the school of basics when it comes to bodybuilding. I have been training since my teens in the mid sixties alwayss using heavy weights and basic exercises. My system has always been Press Behind Neck, Squats, Bench Press, Rowing and barbell curls. I perform eight sets of five reps for all exercises and my workouts take about 3 hours. I do have some fair size but I do not really look impressive. Any suggestions?

For someone who has been training for around twenty years you better have gotten something from your training. Your routine stinks! And the worst thing is that you take three hours to do it. Limited routines such as yours are OK for short periods but to do the same basics for twenty years!!! Where have you been?

Get more variety in your training and increase the reps to 8-10. I suggest you split a routine based on working each muscle group with three different exercises at least, maybe four. If you want shape and impressiveness then I suggest you use specific isolation exercises. Kill your love affair with the basics. After twenty years it's about time.



Tension
(Musclemag Vol 2 issue 1)

People living in isolated areas of the world on food without pesticides, stabilizers, bleaches and preservatives, food grown in soil with no chemical fertilizers added, will never refer to nervous tension in the abdominal region. They relate to the stomach only when hungry.



Squats and Deadlifts
(Musclemag Vol 2 issue 1)

Is it possible to gain muscular bulk without doing heavy squats and deadlifts? It is uncomfortable for me to do these two exercises because I have hemorrhoids and weak knees. When I push squats and deadlifts my thighs begin to get larger, but so do my hemorrhoids, so this is no good.

I understand that you don't even have squat racks in your gym, so will the above course help me to gain bulk without squatting?

I have a small bone structure, if this makes any difference.

1 - 15 percent extra gains can be acquired in the upper body by including leg work. But not squats as they spread and develop glutes and upper thigh disproportionately. Please stick to Hack Slide and Sissy Squats only! The hyperextension for lower back is superior to deadlifts!

2 - Bone structures means nothing.

3 - As to your question as to whether you will gain or not, write me in 90 days and let me know how much you have gained.



DEVELOPING MUSCLE
by Vince Gironda

This consists of two parts ? developing more capillaries and more nerve pathways, or better and stronger nerve impulses to the muscle. Also, to acquire larger muscles, you must increase the intensity of work done within a given time. This means minimum rest between sets. (Push yourself.) I feel workouts should be timed, and constantly strive to shorten the time it takes to get through your routine. (This is a form of Progressive Resistance.) It does not matter how much work you do. What counts is how fast you do it. This is known as the ?overload principle?. The overload principle explains why sprinters have larger leg development than longdistance runners. It is more work to run a mile than 100 yards, but the sprinter is doing more work per second.

I have found that the maximum amount of sets that can be performed to create a maximum pump to a muscle, is 12 sets. Clancy Ross and Bill Pearl both claim that if you can?t get a workout in 15 sets, you are not concentrating properly. Anything above or beyond this is overwork and causes the muscle to contract and lose its blood supply. I have seen this happen to top physique stars, as well as myself. This is not theory, but fact!!! (This is a major fault I find with most beginners.)

I would like to point out here that maximum pump at every workout does not build tissue. It only keeps it pumped up and bloated, but you cannot grow on this much work. Maximum pump workouts should not be employed more often than once a week. Remember, it takes 72 hours to rebuild tissue after this type of workout. Again, I repeat. There is a fine dividing line between enough work and too much work. If you decide to employ this routine, it is best performed by working with a weight that is about 60% of your maximum. Overenthusiastic workouts produce bloated muscle tissue, but no gains.

Top physique stars take maximum workouts every workout. But they work each muscle only twice a week. Even with their superior metabolism, they still need 72 hours recuperation. Take heed ? that workouts tear down tissue ? rest builds it. Talk to any champion. Because of his wide horizon of instinctive knowledge, he cannot and will not give you pat answers. Without consciously knowing the reason for his success, he is unable to guide you. Champions, you must understand, are not necessarily teachers. But they are observers. Watch any champion train, and you will recognize the fact that they appear to be doing something extra, even though they are doing the same exercises as you. That something extra is concentration and an absolute singleness of purpose. I find personally that I can get in top condition by deciding to do so. While my workout partners never seem to consider themselves to be in shape, they also say I am doing the same exercises as you and I am using the same amount of weight; that I am working out at the same speed; but I cannot seem to feel the exercise. The answer to this statement is, think about every part of the movement as you do it. Don?t turn your mind off. In short, concentrate.



COMMON ERRORS IN BODYBUILDING
By Vince Gironda

Not all the experts will agree with this list of common errors in bodybuilding, but Mr. Gironda has not only proved the worth of his knowledge on his own body, but is responsible for training many title winning bodybuilders spanning more than 30 years in which he has run his own gym in California.

1. Over training! (Anything over 45 minutes is over training.)
2. Working out too slowly.
3. Full Sit Ups and Leg Raises.
4. Working abdominals every workout.
5. Working upper body and legs on the same day.
6. Not touching chest to bar and calling it chinning.
7. Not raising up on the big toe when doing Toe Raises (also pulling heels together at counteraction.)
8. Bench Presses for Pecs. (90% Front Deltoid.)
9. Not touching all four bells together on dumbbell bench work. (90% Deltoid if not performed this way.)
10. Deep Knee Bends.
11. Leg Presses.
12. Under working and over working a muscle by performing too wide a variety of exercises on a given muscle.
13. Cheating exercises.
14. Presses for deltoid.
15. One arm exercises.
16. Mixing carbohydrates and protein.
17. Behind neck Chins on Pull-down Machine (Rounded Back.)
18. Not working Hyperextensions and forearms on every upper body day.
19. Skipping breakfast.
20. Side Bends.
21. Not ingesting enzymes at every meal.
22. Not arching back on lat work.
23. Leg Extensions.
24. Leg Curls on extension table.
25. Not selecting the proper exercise for deficient muscle areas.
26. Not keeping chin on chest, feet under face and elbows wide on parallel dips for pecs.
27. No knowledge of combining exercises.
28. Not changing program often enough.
29. No knowledge of breaking a rut.
30. Not specializing on slow growing areas.
31. Not taking supplements.
32. Lack of concentration during workouts.
33. Not having an expert to answer your questions.
34. Unwillingness to accept new or different concepts.
35. Jogging.



Need my booze!

Q: Vince, when you were training for competition and you consciously set yourself short-term goals to achieve. Today from what read one must keep using the mind to motivate and carry through to success. I have bought courses, books, and tapes on motivation and goal setting but I still keep missing workouts and partying. From Friday till Tuesday I just like to drink. But I always regret it when I?ve had a hangover the next day. Please help me because deep down I do want to be a bodybuilding success.

A: You may want it Henry but you don?t need it! You have to be driven uncontrollably. When I was training for competition I was inspired from within. My biggest problem was the hold back my tremendous drive. I would have willingly trained for ten hours at a time. I did not need to set goals. They were dancing in front of my every waking hour, I was hot for success. I need it! Only a handful of men in my day trained like I did and when it came to dieting, I was king of the mountain. I had an iron will. No wonder I was the most ripped bodybuilder in the world for over a decade!

You are not driven Henry. You have to send away for mail order inspiration. I feel sorry for you because the merry lunacy of having to train like a madman has its special rewards. You feel like you are different to the rest. You have an all- encompassing purpose to life. A pursuit for greatness! Let's hope your party habits are only temporary. I myself, took a few flashes of time to drown my sorrows in alcohol, and probably most men go through a similar phase. But keep it short Henry, other wise you could become a bum!

Incidentally, the weekend is Friday night until Sunday night. How come you're still partying on Tuesday? You only have a two-day work week or what?



Another chance?!!!

Q: Vince, last week you kicked me out of your gym after I asked you to help me with planning my training routine. I gave you five big ones and you threw them back at me. You?ll never get rich acting like that Mr. Gironda. I travelled a long way to train with you and you refused to train me or take my money. Please give me another chance, Vince.

A: You?re a screwball, Ted. I don?t give second chances. I agreed to train you for a certain period of time on the understanding that you followed my instructions completely. After I showed you how to perform each exercise for maximum results you insisted on doing the exercises your way. I now have no interest in you or your money. Period. Do not ever contact me again.



ASK VINCE

Q: I've always been interested in what you have written Mr. Gironda, but also I am aware that some things you say are radical to say the least. Some might say your ideas border on being "strange". I mean you do not like the squat or the bench press. These are the two basic moves in bodybuilding. You seldom recommend any shoulder pressing or regular barbell curls? Why are you different from everyone else?

A: I do not set out to be different from everybody else. It's just that my practical experience in training champion bodybuilders (and I mean training them, not just claiming to train them!) extends to a longer period of time than anyone else? It is reasonable, I believe, to understand that I may have picked up a thing or two?I am not a great believer in the exercises you mention because I have found superior substitutions, better movements. Exercises that give more shape, more development and quicker than other methods. You don?t have to buy my book to find out everything I believe. Get it free from your local library.




Q: I am 5'9". Age 48 years old and weigh 165 lbs. I want to get to 180 lbs., but it seems that I just can't do it. I have been training for 20 years. I have a lot of energy. I take a lot of vitamins and liquid protein, but I can't get past 165 pounds. I am medium bone structure. Thinness does run in my family, but I will not accept this fact. I know something can be done to gain weight. I do not, and will not, take any drugs of any kind. I live a 100% natural life. I never get sick and feel better each passing day, but I cant' gain any weight.
Please try and help me to reach my goal by this summer. I talked to many bodybuilders all these years, and they told me that you are the best.

A: I can't imagine why you want to weigh 180 lbs. at your height. I am 5 feet 8 ½ inches tall and I weigh 165-168 lbs. I wish I could keep my weight there at present! I know for a fact that you are confused as to what is a good body! Did you ever stop to think that they neither weigh nor measure Physique Contestants? They judge them entirely visually. I maintain that if you are unhappy with your physique it is because you do not have the proper proportions. The measure of a man's physique is not what he weighs or measures but total symmetry.



BLACK COFFEE?

Q: I have heard that you like to drink a great amount of black coffee, Vince. Do you believe it helps training?

A: I drink very little coffee now, but I did drink it when in my best shape a few years ago. Coffee is a stimulant and may serve to give you a lift. It can be helpful as a substitute for food when you are on a diet. Incidentally, I didn't have any coffee until I was 33 years of age. Currently I am partial to fresh mint tea.




Q: I have been warned by friends not to take steroids, but I want to win our local Mr. Novice State Contest, and I am sure I can do it with steroid therapy. Is there a steroid substitute? I am writing you before taking the plunge in case you know any other way. I have 15 ½" arms, 46" chest and I am 20 years old. I have been training 6 years hard.

A: Forget steroids! Some bodybuilders take them for six or eight weeks in an effort to clinch a Mr. Universe title, but your idea of taking to win a 'Mr. Novice State' is nuts. For fifty bucks you can buy yourself a trophy and live until you are eighty. If you get into the steroid thing you will be all washed up by 30 years of age. I have seen it too many times.

Train each body part three times a week. Take small meals of eggs every few hours (all protein is taken from the egg and is the best source) supplement with Milk and Egg Protein, amino acid tablets and liver tabs.




Q: I have often thought of coming to California, to your Vince's Gym to train. But I'm chicken. I have heard that you shout at people and even kick them out. Are you really aggressive, loud and assertive in your gym?

A: Yes, and thank you for the compliments.

[Bocasean]

Haha!

"So?"

[TrainPainGain]

Excellent post boss! I'm gonna have to do some research on Vince myself.

[Bocasean]

My favorite 2 athletes that Vince trained are Larry Scott and Carl Weathers. I've had to be careful with implementing some of his theories due to imbalance issues for track and field training, but for aesthetics he's one of my all-time favorites.

[espm1000]

Does Vince mean most people are performing these exercises wrong?

8. Bench Presses for Pecs. (90% Front Deltoid.)
11. Leg Presses.
13. Cheating exercises.
14. Presses for deltoid.
15. One arm exercises.